124: ENCORE: Advice for WHEN your call gets messy

Find out how to navigate the complexities of ministry while staying true to your calling with insights from Beth Caulfield, author of "People Throw Rocks at Things that Shine." In this episode, we unpack the inevitable messiness and unexpected hardships that come with following one's spiritual path. Beth provides wisdom on how to remain steadfast, emphasizing that God uses every experience, even the tough ones, to fulfill His greater plan. Drawing inspiration from the Apostle Paul, we discuss the importance of maintaining a close relationship with God and keeping our eyes on Jesus to stay resilient and fruitful in ministry.

Discover practical tools and heartfelt advice on balancing self-care with spiritual duties. Reflecting on moments of divine encouragement, we highlight the significance of finding personal spiritual disciplines, fostering supportive spiritual communities, and integrating self-care practices to avoid burnout. We also embrace the reality of our "crabby" moments, providing strategies to manage them effectively and sustain a healthy spiritual life. Tune in for an episode brimming with encouragement, practical tips, and spiritual nourishment aimed at helping you thrive in your ministry journey.

Chapters

• 0:01 Sustainability in Ministry
• 17:17 Balancing Self-Care in Ministry
• 34:35 Championing Sustainability in Ministry

Transcript

Margie: 0:01

Hey there, Margie Bryce here bringing you the Crabby Pastor podcast, and I don't think you're going to be too surprised to know that it's too easy today to become the Crabby Pastor. Our time together will give you food for thought to help you be the ministry leader fully surrendered to God's purposes and living into whatever it takes to get you there and keep you there. So we're talking about sustainability in ministry. I read a book recently by Beth Caulfield and it's called People Throw Rocks at Things that Shine, which the title alone grabbed me. And as I was reading through the book, one thing in particular, the big picture thing that really touched me was what happens when our call gets a little messy. Happens when our call gets a little messy.

Margie: 1:08

I don't know if any of you have had the opportunity to have your call get messy. I know of a couple who had this gorgeous trajectory totally upward and I'm sure the angels are singing in the background of their call. That's not my experience. I don't think that's the experience of many, many pastors. So this podcast I am going to interview Beth Caulfield. This podcast is dedicated to all y'all out there that whose calls just have been a little messy. Things that you can lean into, lean on, do and all of that so that you don't become, you know, the crabby pastor. So, beth, you are going to kind of start us off. I think with some of your this is like a three-point sermon, almost, isn't it? But I'll let you talk some about our call and who we are as we follow Jesus.

Beth: 2:11

Well, thank you, Margie, and the first thing I want to say is I really appreciate you having me on and giving me the opportunity to talk about this very subject, because it's my hope that, as part of my ministry including with the book is to help people recognize that, yeah, it's just like everything that Jesus said it would be. It's not going to be easy, but if we keep our eyes on him and not on the waves and all that he has taught us in relationship with him, then we can get through it, and I love that you're doing this kind of podcast, because it is clearly about helping us who are in the thick of it Remember that Jesus is teaching us what to do. So you know. You referenced the title of my book, which just is exactly what you're talking about, with the fact that when we are out in ministry, we should not be surprised when the rocks come, and sometimes the rocks come from places that we expect, and sometimes it's usually the ones that hit the hardest are the ones we don't expect, and it all can be a faith building experience if we remember that we knew that this was going to be part of the road and part of the remembering that it's the road is remembering that our call is real. Never doubt it. That our call is real, never doubt it, never sway from when things get tough, feeling that perhaps you heard it wrong or that you made it up or it's over, because all of us have the ministry of believers, whether it's ordained ministry or missionaries or whatever role it is in the local church. We're all called, and the excitement and the abundant life I know you agree, Margie, on this is that we have the opportunity to walk it out, and so you know.

Beth: 4:19

The first thing that I would remind people is exactly that Don't doubt your call, and that call is to bear fruit and you are gifted and you will bear fruit.

Beth: 4:30

And it may look different than what you thought, but the reality is you've got a light Don't hide it under a bushel and it's unique and God has a plan for it. And my calling has wound up being one of really looking at some things within the church structure itself, which was not what I was expecting at all, been different, in that I thought I would be focused on your ministry out in the local church, serving with folks on day-to-day ministry, and it's been that, but some of the rocks that I experienced in that process were helping me work through some of my bigger calling. So my point in saying that and I can get into more depth on that if you want, margie, but if not, that's okay but my point in saying that is God is using even those rocks and sometimes you're the right person to either get hit with them or caught, or catch them because you're the one who's going to help get rid of them.

Margie: 5:44

And do you? Am I remembering correctly that you had some kind of HR background?

Beth: 5:49

Yes, that is correct, yeah.

Margie: 5:51

Yeah, and so that that is some of the gifting that is being used.

Margie: 5:57

It's always interesting, especially for those of us that were you know, second career, as they say, that were you know, second career, as they say, that God does not waste a thing.

Margie: 6:09

You know, I always was amazed that the Apostle Paul was exactly the right kind of person and with his background, with his Jewish aristocracy, if you want to call it that, and then at the same time he had a Greek background that he was exactly the right person to bring the gospel to the non-Jewish folk at the time.

Margie: 6:32

So God still does that kind of thing and he does it in each and every one of our lives, and I know we talked previously before the interview about how it is indeed a spiritual battle, and I always think back to Moses and when he's leading the people out of bondage. And it wasn't very long before they were saying, for heaven's sakes, why are we following this crazy guy out here, when we had three square meals a day back in Egypt and you're like, come on. I mean those kinds of things for any leader are just plain old challenges, but we have to remember that our battle is not against flesh and blood, even though you know there might be somebody you want to punch in the nose metaphorically, metaphorically not really so talk some about how you see the spiritual aspect of this Sure.

Beth: 7:32

So the key on it is knowing the Lord and keeping your relationship close with him, and in doing that, obviously, you practice your spiritual disciplines, and one of the ones that most often gets neglected, when we get on the run and we start getting upset, is we tend to run into the cave, like Elijah, and think that we are alone and start operating like we are alone.

Beth: 8:04

And probably the most important thing that I could say on this is to remember that you are not alone and that when things get difficult, as you're trying to walk through your calling, that you are not going to persevere if you do not reach out to the resources that the Lord has given you through other people. You know Elijah didn't remember that there were others out there with the same understanding of the evil that was going on in the time that they were living in. And you know reaching out and having conversations with others and hearing other people say, no, you're not crazy. And in my case, no, you're not crazy or a failure. There is a problem, there's something going wrong in our system that needs to get fixed and let's work together for ways to improve it. And if there weren't people around me at times. Then I made efforts to go out and find them.

Beth: 9:14

That's good advice. You know, often we can just say well, you know I'm alone, and a lot of you know, let's face it, a lot of pastors, we tend to be introverted, and there's nothing wrong with being introverted, except for when it gets in the way of us being able to reach and connect with the Lord, and sometimes that connection is as we stand there in the pulpit and say every week has to do with working with other people. So, for instance, as part of my story as a pastor in the United Methodist Church in greater New Jersey, when I started recognizing that there were some issues within the system and that I felt I was different whether that be in the way I looked at the ordination process, the way I looked at doing ministry, the way my theology was, whatever it was as I started recognizing that there was something different about me, I prayed and the Lord started showing me. You're not the only one, and in my case, this was in 2016,.

Beth: 10:22

There was another group of people who were coming together, who were asking a lot of the same questions, and we had a meeting out in Chicago. This was the Wesleyan Covenant Association. Right, we had a meeting, and there I saw other people that I had affinities with, who were having some of the same questions and so forth, and so that was helpful and bolstering for me that I wasn't alone. There was a time when I was at a conference with a female pastor that I hardly knew, but we bonded and I let her in on some of the challenges I was having and she was the one who recognized Beth. There's a spiritual dimension to what's happening here and that's funny for people to hear that this would be a revelation to pastors. But sometimes when you're in your own world dealing with difficulties, you don't see the bigger picture, and the bigger picture always involves that spiritual piece. Bigger picture, and the bigger picture always involves that spiritual piece. So having this person say, yeah, you are facing some persecution and let's attack this from a spiritual place was helpful.

Margie: 11:36

Right, and I think I think too. You know everybody deals with something in the hall. You know, frequently women, clergy, deal with something related to that. But let me tell you as well, the guys, there's always something, I think there's always something that is our thorn in the flesh as we continue to walk it out. And the deal, the gig, is to be faithful and obedient on a day-by-day basis. But you've identified something you know don't walk alone for sure.

Margie: 12:16

And this is a prize of the Wesleyan heritage that we have, where this was a key facet.

Beth: 12:24

Yes.

Beth: 12:25

How things developed, go ahead, yeah and yeah and that's I would say that as important as finding someone that you can unload on or whatever, is finding someone or people that are going to provide you with a godly counsel and accountability. Those are key words in our Wesleyan heritage as well, and I'm a strong proponent of Wesleyan bands, or, if you call it, an accountability group or small group at this point, but finding people that you can be comfortable with and develop relationship with to hold one another accountable. You know I can say that during some of the difficult times that I went through, god put it on my heart to start a band, and it was challenging because I'm like well, who am I going to have a band with? There's no one like in my whole state that agrees with me, but what God did was help me find prayer partners, actually who I could be close with, who are all over the country, and for over two years we have met together via Zoom every Monday morning at eight o'clock. I have a friend, kim Reisman, who's head of the World Evangelism Program. She is part of that. She's in Indiana. I have a friend who's a pastor down in Florida, a layperson who is a leader in the Global Methodist Church out in Oklahoma, and another friend who's a deacon out in Pittsburgh in the United Methodist Church. We get together and we hold one another up and I cannot tell you how helpful that has been.

Beth: 14:14

I also would say that, reaching out to others who are beyond your circle, within your denomination, or even that close of Wesleyanism, I have good accountability partners who are assembly of gods, nazarenes Again, that's the Wesleyan heritage. But again, the point is we can get ourselves caught up in. No one understands because no one's like me and everyone's got that when in fact we should be looking for people and I, you know, I'd even say spiritual mentors versus institutional ones, and and we can get into a whole thing with that our, our important family perspective always counts. You know, you know, we, we always wrestle as pastors with how much to bring your family in, how much not to bring them in. Well, do bring them in some, because they help keep you grounded. And at the same time, you know, there are wonderful spiritual directors, coaches, and therapists.

Beth: 15:26

I mean, there are a lot of people to help you not go it alone.

Margie: 15:33

So that's the key there, right, and I always think of that Elijah passage and when I've preached on it I always say I realize off of the pages of scripture there's no intonation, but I always read that pretty whiny that Elijah says and I'm the only one left, and I'm the one here that cares about this, that I'm the only, and it's very easy for us to get locked into that and we need to be very intentional. I was just at Palcon at Trevecca Nazarene University and I took a workshop and they were talking about spiritual friends and doing exactly what you were talking about Once a week getting together and, if nothing else, it just gives you more brains to work with other than just your own head, because your own brain sometimes can get a little bit nearsighted and out of focus and definitely lose sight of the very, very big picture. I think you also mentioned something about an app, or am I making that up?

Beth: 16:44

Yeah, no, there are apps to help you stay within the framework of a Wesleyan band and all of a sudden, I'm forgetting the name of ours here.

Margie: 16:56

Okay, Well, we'll put it back in.

Margie: 17:00

If it pops back in, just pause everything and we'll insert that, or we'll insert it in the show notes, that's not a problem. Also, I think we talked about paying attention to when God sends people to help you. If somebody just all of a sudden appears on the scene and you don't know what to make of that really, instead of just considering the coincidence or just something happenstance, it's not really significant really tuning into the spirit and saying, oh my, god sees, god knows and God cares. And I was at another conference and I'm standing by my you know crabby pastor table and that kind of thing, and a woman came up to me.

Margie: 17:51

This was when I was with the Free Methodists in Michigan recently and a woman came up to me and just said this is just so needed.

Margie: 18:01

And I appreciate that kind of encouragement, I really do, keeps me wanting to keep on, keeping on, you know, with it. But she all of a sudden put her arm around me and just started praying for my ministry and I was so grateful for that. I really was. But after she left and as I'm packing up for the day, I just reflected back on that and thought and as I'm packing up for the day, I just reflected back on that and thought, yep, god sees, god knows and God does care. So it's always amazing when those moments arrive and somebody has skin on and they've been sent by Jesus just to say you know good job, or keep moving, or something or anything that is going to be meaningful to you and encourage you Amen. So we are left, then, with one other aspect that we talked about, and that is one of my favorite topics self-care. So I think you talked about ministry being a marathon and not a sprint.

Beth: 19:07

Yes, yes, I'm going to pause here because I remember the name of that app. So a great app to help you with a Wesleyan band is something called Discipleship Bands and it's put out by Seedbed and it just offers some support around the basic questions that go into a Wesleyan covenant group. You know, the first question is always how is it with your soul for the group to wrestle with? And then what are your struggles and successes? And then how might the spirit and scriptures be speaking in your life? If you just use those three questions, you will have robust conversation. But the band app that I'm talking about also offers other resources and other questions to help keep you going. So I'd recommend that, and anybody can start a band.

Margie: 20:00

I know it sounds funny. Anybody can start a band and I automatically my head goes back to the 70s, being in the garage and people getting the drums. You play the guitar.

Beth: 20:19

Not that kind of band, but anybody can start a Wesleyan band for sure. And the other thing is often, as pastors, we're good at helping encourage our laity to get involved in bands, and then we have this question of whether to get involved with them or not, and then, if we may, want that kind of accountability with other pastors but it can be awkward, you know, letting your hair down or finding the right people and so forth but what I could say is when, when I prayed about it and reached out, every person I reached out to was like oh, that's wonderful. I've been wanting to do something like this with someone, so don't let your own insecurities keep you from doing it. It's such a blessing, absolutely, absolutely. So you were asking me about self-care and knowing yourself and the importance of that, and you're right. That is such a key when the rocks come.

Beth: 21:11

And, as I had shared with you, I know that I am by nature, a sprinter and not a marathoner, and yet ministry is a marathon, and what I mean by that is I am someone who just gets full of energy for whatever it is that I'm working on and I just go, go, go, and I can just go until there's no energy anymore and then I'm completely depleted. And what I would say is that might be okay if that's who you are, if that's who you're created to be. Now, sometimes that's just a matter of discipline, right, and you need to be a little more cognizant. What I would say is know what works for you. So, for instance, I know that I get a lot of energy and just go, go, go, but that means I can't do it for a long time and I have to take more frequent breaks and I have to have long rests when I do that, versus someone who may do a lower, steadier energy level throughout, may be able to go a little longer without a Sabbath or without. I know that when we're talking realistically in ministry, all of us struggle with Sabbath. And when we're legalistic about it and say, hey, it's got to happen exactly this time every week and you got to do this, that's just one more pressure that makes it difficult for people. And what I would say is no, you need to know yourself and what the Lord's calling of you on it, and, whatever it is, don't neglect it.

Beth: 22:53

You know, for me, self-care has always been exercise and vacations. It's also included taking leave of absence. It has been taking special ministry trips to just be ministered to. I, you know, I refer in my book to some time that I spent in Korea. I went over there both to do ministry and for some rest and relaxation, but it was also a time for me to be ministered to and it was just so important.

Beth: 23:28

And I know that I need to continue my spiritual disciplines but not become slaves to them for the sake of the discipline themselves. And that's you know. And again, Margie, I'm going to another level here. I'm trying to very much so reinforce that spiritual disciplines are important, but recognizing that having that close relationship with the Lord will make them as fruitful as possible. And it's the relationship with the Lord that's the most important part about it.

Beth: 24:03

And so I would say, you know, don't beat yourself up over spiritual disciplines, but find the balance in your life that the Lord has put there in the way he made you personally and you specially. We all need balance and moderation and I really think that that's you know. Someday that's going to be another book that I write is just that importance of that balance and moderation for each of us and figuring out where it fits within the theological framework that we've been, given that this is probably, and especially now, as we're still in or coming out of or wherever we are in these pandemic times, that is such a critical issue. I just see so many, in particular pastors, who are crying out on social media and elsewhere by repeatedly, you know, just posting their concerns or posting concerning things about their lives that you know. It's time for us to do a gut check and say, you know, maybe I need a break, and I don't that doesn't mean walking away from your calling at all, but what does that break look like?

Margie: 25:31

So, yes, that's really important and I like that you bring out that balance piece of not making your spiritual disciplines legalistic, you know, or any of that. Like Sabbath Okay, all right, I blew it. I didn't start at 7am this morning for my exact 24 hours of you know, and I can get caught in something like that very easily and then I feel like I messed up and then I tag into and that makes me less than perfect and then I say, oh, just nevermind, you know that whole spiral, yeah, just nevermind. So you know, sometimes I find what I need to do is extend some grace to my own self. Yes, yes, that way. And just, you know, I am a little bit more sprinter ish in nature. I can take off, you know, like a shot, and then if I don't pace myself, I can easily just go go crash and burn, and that's what we want to have happen. So I don't know if that says something better about those who are a little bit more marathon oriented, but I liked what you said about knowing which one you are.

Beth: 26:50

Yeah, I mean, and I you know, and I've had that question myself before Well, would it be better if I retrained to be a marathoner? And then what I have realized is, no, if I slow my pace I don't have fun. That's not who I am. That doesn't mean there aren't times that you need to restrain yourself. That's not. You know again. But in general, when I have passion and energy towards something, I have so much and the adrenaline is there and it can last for weeks, months, years, right or not, but I recognize it, I recognize the Holy Spirit in it which fuels it more. But if I'm going to pay attention to that, I also need to pay attention to when the Holy Spirit says now, whoa slow it down back off Right.

Margie: 27:46

And then and then, as you get older and older and I read this book about cause I ride a bicycle, I cycle, and and I read about recovery. It was somebody I'd talked to who does? I mean, she has high end cycling. I'm not. I'm like 11 and a half miles per hour average. I'm not anybody who's going to be 20 anything ever, probably. And she said, oh, you can work into it. And I'm thinking, yeah, maybe I don't want to, but but she said one thing once you get over a certain age, that you need to take recovery time. So no longer do I ride two days in a row, yep. And so you apply something like that to your self-care and spirituality and you know, as you get a little older, you really better do that.

Margie: 28:35

I have a series coming up next that's going to have some people on that have come back from burnout and they're more than 25, let's just say more than 35. And they have some wisdom to share with us in that regard as well, in terms of self-care. So, are there any? Okay, I have now learned that from one interview I did. At the end of it, I said, is there anything you want to add? And they said to me yeah, you never asked me what makes me crabby.

Margie: 29:09

I laughed about that and then I thought I guess I didn't ask that. So this is your moment If you would like to share with us and and I will give you this caveat that at a couple of the conferences that I've been at lately I usually have had one person saunter by and just kind of smile at me and go I'm never crabby, and I want to say that, okay, you go find your spouse and bring them over here and we'll have this discussion again. Whether it is overtly crabby or you know, within your heart and spirit is there anything that you would like to share with us that makes you crabby, and maybe what you do about that?

Beth: 29:53

Yeah, well, you know the maybe this is a boring answer, but I have to just circle back to what we were just talking about. I think I'm crabby when I start letting myself spiral into questioning my call and questioning my gifts, when I start isolating myself and when I neglect self-care. And when I neglect self-care and I think those three things really, I mean when I'm acting out being crabby, when I look at it, at least one of those is being jeopardized and it's a decision that I have made to do it and not to beat myself up or anyone else for doing that. But it's a good self-checklist to look back and say, okay, why am I so crabby? Well, maybe it's because I haven't taken a break in a long time. Maybe it's because I'm just sitting here wallowing in self-pity and not talking to anybody. I need to get it out right. Or maybe it's because I'm starting to believe those voices in the head that are saying you're not accomplishing anything. That's what's important. You're failing because you weren't called to do any of this mess to begin with. So doing those things.

Beth: 31:17

Two other brief things that I'll mention is don't be afraid to change. Don't be afraid to change direction, because God does that sometimes too. I always thought that my calling was to be an ordained pastor in the United Methodist Church. I spent eight years in that process and my book is about that. Right, I never became that. I am, however, an ordained elder in the Global Methodist Church right now, and I am doing other things as well.

Beth: 31:52

But that took a realization that God had a different plan with what I was supposed to be doing. And, of course, the book talks a lot more about why that is. But my point is sometimes the calling. The calling's always there, but you don't know where it's going to lead you. And don't be afraid to take either the path less traveled right, I got to talk in these shapes but the path less traveled or the take the about face fork in the road. Do recognize, as Paul did, that the spirit wasn't leading him there. Right To go somewhere else. And related to that is don't be afraid to shake the dust off your feet, Right.

Margie: 32:38

Oswald Chambers says this and he says are you attached to your ideas about God or are you attached to God? And I can add to that and say are you following your ideas about what God has for you or are you following Jesus? You following Jesus. And that's a hefty, hefty push. I know I served in pastoral ministry for 15 years and I don't know that if somebody would have told me what I would be doing today, that my ministry would be to ministry leaders, I would have, you know, thoughts. That's crazy.

Margie: 33:17

And the bigger, bigger picture is that the church is in a transition. The Big C church is in a transition right now, post-pandemic, and you're going to have people who are daring to follow the call of the Spirit to develop ministries from within traditional settings that are new, or they might run parallel to a traditional church setting. Or there might be some who are independent and a little more entrepreneurial. Or there might be some who, you know, I'm going to have a used car lot and I'm going to do it with this level of integrity and open and honest trading and dealings with people. I'm going to do my ministry and my life and my work and my practice in such a way that people are going to say hey what is?

Margie: 34:09

up with that person. They definitely don't do the status quo thing. Their ministry, their coffee shop, their I've got friends doing farming, kind of you know, let me raise really healthy food for you. I've got I know people doing all this kind of thing, and so the question is are we keeping in step with the spirit in this very, very unique era? So I want to thank you, beth, for coming on the Krabby Pastor podcast.

Margie: 34:40

I wonder if people are thinking, if I go on there, does that mean I'm Crabby? I don't know, does it? I think we all are. This is the honest thing. I hope not, and I liked what you said because that was a good, healthy ownership of the fact that we all can be Crabby. We're crabby on the outside or just crabby on the inside, and you know Jesus knows. So thanks again, and I will put the resources that Beth has mentioned in the show notes. Thank you so much for being here today. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby Pastor.