127: More (and even worse) stories we tell ourselves

Both men and women will benefit from this discussion on how women leaders in ministry navigate the unique challenges of self-doubt and cultural barriers. Join us as Margie Bryce and our special guest Janyne McConnaughey uncover the intricacies of imposter syndrome and self-limiting narratives that often plague women in leadership. With a rich background in both supportive and restrictive church environments, Janyne sheds light on the critical need for male leaders to foster inclusive spaces and the invaluable role of self-awareness and self-compassion.

We are talking about sustainability in ministry leadership. Margie opens up about her own experience stepping back from pastoral duties to champion sustainable practices that prevent burnout. With her passion for self-care strategies, Margie offers practical advice and resources to help leaders maintain their well-being and fulfill God's plans without becoming overwhelmed. This episode is a heartfelt conversation that champions vulnerability, resilience, and a commitment to personal growth.

Chapters

• 0:01 Challenging Self-Talk for Women Leaders
• 13:49 Embracing Personal Stories of Growth
• 20:31 Breaking Limiting Narratives Through Reflection
• 32:36 Supporting Sustainable Ministry Leadership

Transcript

Margie: 0:01

Hey, there it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time, so we hit topics there, too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the crabby pastor

Margie: 0:32

This\This is Margie Bryce with the Crabby Pastor Podcast. Are you crabby today? I always like to ask people why they're crabby. So not why are you crabby right now? But what are the things that make you crabby? Because life is challenging enough. Hay, who is just amazing to chat with. I love having our conversations because you bring different things to the forefront and help us in our thinking, but we're still talking somewhat about self-care and the stories that we tell ourselves. I think that goes in with, uh, imposter syndrome too, don't you think?

Janyne: 1:24

It does, it does and uh, probably with women or the most, not that men are absent from it, but it's different, it looks different. We're the queens of syndrome.

Margie: 1:40

How is that? You know? Or you know, because I've asked myself questions before what makes me think I can do fill in the blank, especially in terms of ministry. I mean, I know for me, when I just accepted my call, I just, I don't know. I have catholic roots I don't know if you knew that or not about me, but catholic roots, so you know, when god calls, know there's angels in the background going and all that. And so you just, I just plotted along and as I got into the thick of it it was much more challenging to navigate than what I anticipated.

Margie: 2:16

Like I think in our last episode you said something about how light, how we think life is going to be, and it's always this beautiful upward trajectory with flowers and lollipops everywhere, and then we get on it and it's more like a wacky ride on a roller coaster. And for leaders, especially our sense of self-care. And we talked last episode about our ability to think, about our thinking. Why do we think like that? You know, that is a key component of self-awareness and it is a factor that arises when you're talking about things like self-talk and the kind of stories that we tell ourselves about who we are, and our abilities, our giftedness Any of that resonate with you, janine.

Janyne: 3:10

Yes, and as you were talking, I was thinking about the fact that my story is kind of unique in as far as a woman leader, in that I began my dad was a pastor in a denomination, a Wesleyan denomination, that ordained women and had women church board members and and, and some of the, some of the women that I was acquainted with growing up were just strong women leaders with growing up were just strong women leaders Just like, yes, take charge and get it done, and compassionate and hardworking, but strong. And after I graduated from college, I took a job in a church that was a self-proclaimed fundamentalist church. Okay, I, I had no idea, I had absolutely no idea that that a world where women's, my very strong leadership skills, would not be appreciated and it didn't really go well, let's just put it that way.

Margie: 4:26

Well, that's probably the nicest thing you had to say about that just didn't go well did not go well and I I was.

Janyne: 4:40

I I was fired two jobs in a row. No, there, there was a job in the middle in a Brethren church. It was lovely, lovely experience and so anyway. So when I talk about the role of women, I almost feel, I feel like I have those two very different viewpoints inside of me, and so it's hard for me to. I deeply sympathize with those who live in church cultures that have very prescribed ways that women can express their leadership, if at all. And then I have this other side of me that was very, very strong and went to a college that was very strong in developing women as leaders. And so I just want to say that before we go into this, because sometimes I say things that seem like I'm saying two different things, but they come out of two different parts of my life Because it depends on what the question is.

Margie: 5:51

That's fine and, as you were talking about that, you know, I've been aware of those situations. I've been in congregations and certainly if you have a Catholic upbringing, the opportunities for women are none. But that's spelled N-U-N. I mean. I guess there's other things. Some churches would allow a lector you know, a female lector, others would not, you know. So that is an environment in which the story has been pre-written for you.

Margie: 6:24

Yes, Right, yes, this is what I'm thinking about as you're talking. I thought, isn't that amazing then to encounter places where the story is not just this is a story that you're writing and don't think even about anything else, even if you're competent and able to live a different story. But we still can, even in those environments that allow for space for a broader story, even in those environments, we can be our own worst enemy as women, be our own worst enemy as women. And I have to say here too, before we go too much further with this, that, guys, if you're listening, this is worthwhile for you to hear and to know and to understand, especially as you are giving space in your life for women leaders and you're inviting them to sit at the table of leadership. It's important to understand this. So but yes, we can undermine ourselves.

Janyne: 7:32

Right, and I appreciate you saying that, because men stay with us. Right, because we what women can offer in a church, and I've learned to navigate how to be a leader in a, in a, in a culture that did not did not allow me to be the leader that I could have been. I learned to navigate that and to make an impact that I could have been. I learned to navigate that and to make an impact and, and I want I want to say that it wasn't like I just went and curled up in a corner. I was definitely a leader there, but I had parameters that I had to live by.

Janyne: 8:16

But but, but no matter what you're, no matter what you believe about the ordination or not ordaining women within a church, then is it about women or is it about women in leadership, right? So I think that they miss so much of what women could bring to the table and the viewpoints that they could bring to the table if they were allowed to sit at the table. And so find a way, in whatever theological, whatever doctrinal, whatever, doesn't matter to me Find a way to listen to women, and staying here with us is one of those ways. Sure, so no pressure.

Margie: 9:08

But pressure, I know. So why do we think that women seem to be better at the negative self-talk? And especially? You know, if you do enough of the negative self-talk over time, you're a writer you're taking all these sentences or paragraphs about your negative self and then you knit it all together and it does become the story that you tell yourself about yourself. And I know, for me I sometimes, when things haven't gone the way I had hoped I can, you know, what do I think I'm doing? And you know what? What kind of story do I want to really live into? I have to stop myself literally and and really say whoa so I'm going to tell a story right here.

Janyne: 10:04

I was having a conversation with my brothers last week and we were talking about we have conversations about growing up and we're like 10 years apart, five years apart, and and I was the youngest and they were the two older boys and and our perspectives of our, our life as children are very there's some things that we, you know, they're very supportive of me, they agree completely, but there's things that they're like wow, we didn't see it that way, Right. And so I think that sometimes when I storytell, then I lose my train of thought.

Margie: 10:41

No, no, you're good. You're right that several people in the same family can encounter the same trauma, but the impact of that trauma can be very different, very very different. So that's fair game.

Janyne: 10:58

And when we talk about women? Okay, let's say, you put a woman, a woman and a man in a room and they both make the same mistake. Okay, the man's gonna get a pass on the mistake he just made and the women is unlikely to get a pass on the mistake she just made.

Margie: 11:20

Okay, just the way that. Is that always the case?

Janyne: 11:27

Do you think? I think that when it comes to leadership, I'm not talking about morals, I'm not talking about we're talking about just women in leadership roles. Okay, that that it is. It is much easier for for the man to make the mistake, and a lot of times when the woman is makes a mistake, she's seen as well. You really probably shouldn't have been in a leadership role because you're a woman and you're too emotional, you know all of those things right, Whereas a man who say, well, you know what, you were being a strong leader and you made a decision and you went with it.

Janyne: 12:03

And that's more important, right, that it is like. All of the research will show you that how that is viewed by, by, by men and women. Okay, that that it's much harder. And so when you, when you are put in situation after situation after situation like that, then you eventually come to believe that you, you are the problem, and that's where the negative self-talk comes from. And so I mean, I would get, I, I would.

Janyne: 12:37

I was kid that every teacher was they love me, but, oh, my goodness, she's a challenge, okay and so, but I would, I would get in trouble for things that the boys didn't get in trouble for, right, it was just really, it was just different. And so I think that we, when we talk about we talked about in the last part that that, what we have, what happens to us as children and what happens to us, I think that that that it's easier in the, in the process of growing up, to see being a woman as its own form of negativity, as it's, you know, too emotional, to, to, to, to, to you know, yeah, and then if you do step into some roles, you know you're, you're too, too, too.

Janyne: 13:38

Right, and so you're always trying, you're always bucking up against that, and you come to accept that as your own narrative. And and and once again, you know, whenever we talk in generalities, it doesn't apply to everyone. I posted something the other day and three people say well, that wasn't my experience. I'm like oh, you're so blessed.

Margie: 14:03

Yeah, yeah, well, it is, that's wonderful, that's wonderful, yeah, that's true, that's true. But you know, I mean we all, I think write stories about ourselves. It is definitely connected to our past experience that you know things that you have encountered. It all comes to be a part of who you are and you do function out of that. It's a matter, too, then, of learning to discern when you're heading down that merry path that I mean. But we have to be careful, because I came to this conclusion one day is that I can't be that little yapping piece of clay at God saying to God you made me incorrectly. You know I should have been crafted as a guy. You know, I mean, I was made to be female and I have to step into that and live into that. And then you know, because all, even the guys in ministry, everybody, everybody, let me say it this way Everybody has something that they have to push through and persevere through in ministry, all of us have baggage, all of us have something, and it just so happens that that, you know, women have their own category. You know that they have to say I am, I am called by god, and I need to just stand firm in that, and what the rest of all y'all do with. That is your issue. It's done. You know, I don't know. You know, because it's tricky. It's tricky.

Margie: 15:52

I have on my husband's side of the family, the family I married into, there was there's a faction that is wesleyan. They would acknowledge women's gifts and abilities in ministry. And then there was a faction where, no, you are an abomination and you know, what do you think you're doing? So I know I would go hide behind the Wesleyan people at the family reunions because I was basically a wuss, I guess. I just so you know, I mean. But then you have to say to yourself look, I'm somebody who was called by God.

Margie: 16:35

Now the story for me does get better. I mean, this is it was kind of sad because it has to do with funerals, but my father-in-law and then his older brother passed within six weeks of each other. And when my father-in-law and then his older brother passed within six weeks of each other, and when my father-in-law passed, I was asked to participate in the funeral and I thought, okay, you know, because, all right, I'm going to be up front, I'm going to be doing that, and I did. And it must have been acceptable, because six weeks later I was asked to participate in my uncle's funeral, who was basically not having that and not down with women doing that. Fortunately, I had served in a parachurch ministry and was known in my community and connected with that, and the pastor at his church was not down with women doing that.

Margie: 17:30

He was gracious to me when I came in the door and I just said I'm going to go just sit up on the front row. You let me know when you want me to come up. And they wanted me to read some scripture and solicit for people to share. You know that was my role. And I said now I'll do that. And he said no, no, no, you're going to process in with us. And the casket, he said. And then you're sitting on the platform, you know. And I just said oh, all righty.

Margie: 17:59

So all of this happens, I'm sitting on the platform, I'm going to get up and read scripture in this church, and it was it stated in the, in the little handout for everyone, that I was Reverend Dr Margie Bryce, which I thought, oh my gosh, look at this. And I got up front and I'll never forget, just standing there for just a moment and looking out over all of these people and I thought, truly, god, you can place my little feet anywhere you so choose, can't you? And I kind of chuckled to myself in the irony of the moment that was there. It was really really kind of interesting. So that's a story. My spiritual director when I shared it with her, you know I thought she was going to come out of her chair when I shared it and she said you know, that is an important God thing to remember and reflect on. Especially now is where I'm going to shift back to, especially as you seek to tell your stories to yourself.

Janyne: 19:09

Right, well, okay, so let me give my version of that, okay, Okay, because I'm listening to you and I'm like, oh my gosh, yes, and and the. The story I'm going to tell is very different. It shows how our path with God is such an individual thing. So I had taught at Bible colleges for 33 years when I ended out going and beginning therapy and healing and I resigned from my position as part of that and I said I told my therapist my life is over. You know my career, you know I I'd worked, I'd worked to achieve a high level of professionalism. I it's over and that's a story to tell yourself right yeah.

Janyne: 20:01

It's over, you know, and she said. She said, janine, I know you can't see your future right now, but but it's out there and I'll hold it for you until you get there, Okay.

Margie: 20:14

Oh, that was such a sweet thing to say, isn't that amazing?

Janyne: 20:18

And she is out here with me tracking what I'm doing and we laugh about that a lot. Remember when you sat there and you said, okay, so there I am with my story and believing that my life is over. And then five years, five years past that point, I have. I've been teaching in the, a master's program for neuroscience and trauma. I've done I don't know how many podcasts and speaking. It's like up in the 70s probably. That I've done. I've been president.

Janyne: 20:54

I just finished my fifth year as a board member for the Attachment and Trauma Network and I thought when I went outside of the church that I would never be accepted because of my background in the Bible college professor. You know, bible college professor goes out into the world and you know how is that going to work. And so when I, two years ago, I was president of the board and I got up to greet everyone as president of the board and I looked out over the conference, we were in person and I looked out at all the people and I had that moment that you had standing there where I said, I said God is not limited by my narrative about myself, because the same thing that those doors will all be closed to me because of my you know Bible college professor background at a small college right and and God is not limited by the narratives that we tell ourselves is exact.

Margie: 22:07

It kind of gives me chills to hear our two stories and have that moment right, I know I know and and those are the those are the moments that we need to sew into ourselves, even if you're allergic to needle and thread, like I am. But we need to throw those into ourselves and really reflect on those. I remember early on in my Christian walk-on I had some amazing discipleship, a gal that just walked with me and she would all the time talk about I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me, and that it is God that gives us our gifts and abilities to use and to move forward in that. But then there are the days that we allow our you know, our past to just kind of come bubbling up and and overtake the moment. And we need to just get better at recognizing that and recognizing our thinking about that and then not wanting to weave that into our story all the time.

Margie: 23:21

But you know, poor me is a good one, that one you know I feel like the victim. A lot you know about this or that and I just I go, oh, that's, that's really not who I want to be. And the same thing with being just at times feeling like I'm this tragic little figure and there's a weird little narrative, and then saying that's not who I want to be and I don't think God made me to be that exactly so learning to shift and and be aware that that that we're doing harm to ourselves right.

Janyne: 23:59

Well, you know, I just want to say this is really kind of an interesting I'm going to be really vulnerable right here.

Janyne: 24:04

Okay, because, because this wasn't what we were originally going to talk and we kind of went off and did the second part, and I'm sitting here going, oh my gosh, this was for me, okay.

Janyne: 24:16

And so so I'm sitting here and I'm realizing, because because I I had to step back this year, I had to, I had to set down everything in order to heal and just whole other layers of trauma that that I was not even aware of in some cases and was not aware of the impact on me.

Janyne: 24:39

And so so I, I I've set down so many things and, like I said in the first, that this is the first podcast back after taking this long hiatus, and I and I realizing that I I'm, because of age and because of the long-term impact of trauma, in some ways I am limited going forward in what I can do, but but that does not affect what God has planned for me now that I've worked through all that healing, right. So I've kind of gone back. I realized, as I was telling my own narrative, I went, oh my gosh, I mean, you're sitting on that couch again, thinking it's over right, and I'm just going to sit on my back porch and not that I'm not happy there. I love my chickens and they make me laugh and I just sit and watch and the birds come and I just I absolutely love my life here where I am, but it doesn't mean that that the next part of my life isn't less important than the part that I just completed.

Janyne: 25:45

They're they're going to look very different from each other, but they're just as important and more focused on my writing than what the last five years, even though I published four books how can I say I wasn't focused on my writing? It's just different, in a different way. And so I do think that those narratives that get embedded in us and I wonder if, when I moved, after I had lived somewhere for 10 years as a little girl and suddenly was uprooted, all of my support systems, all of my friends, all of everything my church, my community, everything I lost and then I just got deposited somewhere else If that narrative didn't begin there, then my life is over. When changes happen, my life is over, yeah.

Janyne: 26:35

Right. Then I'm just like, oh my gosh, that's what I'm doing again. That narrative is so deep within me that I don't see it as a pivot, I see it as an end, and that's what. That's what narratives do to us is they get stuck because of what has happened to us as as children or as adults, and then and then we get stuck in that same narrative again of believing that it's over, or we can't do that or that, not possible. And so thank you, thank you for continuing, now that I've had, I've had my own little therapy set.

Margie: 27:14

I know having epiphanies on the on the crabby pastor podcast by golly, that's pretty funny, it is, it is. So, yeah, I don't know. Now I'm sitting here wondering if I shouldn't rename the podcast, because what was I thinking? What kind of story is this Crabby bastard? I don't know. Well, I want to thank you so much for being on here again and for sharing, and our hope is that, at the end of the day, that you're going to be really looking at the story that you're telling yourself about yourself and asking yourself what story is God writing? And am I trying to swipe the pencil all the time? What kind of story are you? And if you're not sure about what story God is writing, I guess I'm going to push a little further and say are you at peace with letting God hold the blueprint as you walk with God through this era?

Janyne: 28:19

Yeah, because it's going to be so much better than you expected. Hard times, difficult times, absolutely, but it'll take you to a place you never expected to be. And I want to say this is really funny but what I talked about about metacognition in the first yeah, you just wanted to say that again. I wanted to say metacognition again. I love that word. Okay, just what I just did set demonstrated what I tried to explain in the first one. That was being being curious, thinking about what I was thinking, and, and because of that, then I will not fall into that self-talk narrative again. So they both fit together, yeah.

Margie: 29:05

And this is totally unscripted besides. So, although I have a feeling that God had a hand for sure, what do you think? I don't know. Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast again, and I love having you here.

Janyne: 29:23

It's always a fun conversation. Yes, I love this. Thank you, thank you.

Margie: 29:31

So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill. Absent or just not fitting the bill? This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create. And there's a nifty, nifty analogy Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about. So I'd love for you to join me. To do that, to opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmailcom. That's crabbypastor at gmailcom. So you won't want to miss this dot com. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So, so make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.

Margie: 30:58

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest, is burnout Maybe. I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebricecom that's B-R-Y-C-E MargieBricecom, and it is a burnout questionnaire free for you to download, and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it, and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebricecom it's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.

Margie: 32:36

Hey friends, the Krabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook I make stained glass as part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast, and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the show notes. But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help.

Margie: 33:47

I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby Pastor. Thank you.