134: Back from Burnout: Rev. Rob Gashler's saga

What happens when a dedicated discipleship pastor faces the crushing weight of ministry burnout? This episode of the Crabby Pastor podcast brings you another Back from Burnout saga with an eye-opening conversation about pastor health featuring our brave guest, Rob Gashler, who shares his personal story of navigating the challenging waters of ministry burnout and recovery. From his experience in college ministry and church planting to his current role at Second Baptist Church in Baytown, Texas, Rob opens up about the anxiety and pressures that led to a breaking point. His journey underscores the critical need to seek new paths when necessary.

Burnout isn't just an individual struggle—it's an issue deeply intertwined with organizational structures and cultural expectations. Join us as we uncover how environments can become 'burnout factories,' placing undue blame on individuals while ignoring systemic issues. Through our discussion, we highlight the essential balance of spiritual, mental, and emotional well-being, drawing on insights from Pastor Wayne Cordero's "Leading on Empty." We confront the relentless North American productivity culture and advocate for a faith-centered approach to work and leadership, emphasizing rest, boundaries, and quiet time with God as crucial elements for sustainability.

I am passionate about fostering sustainable ministry practices and invite you to explore this vital subject as there are very few warning signs that you are heading toward burnout. Listen in to explore pastor health so you can remain fulfilled and effective in your calling.

Chapters

• 0:01 Navigating Burnout in Ministry
• 11:49 Finding Balance and Healing From Burnout
• 24:03 Navigating Ministry Burnout Recovery
• 36:57 Supporting Sustainable Ministry Practices

Transcript

Margie: 0:01

Hey there, it's Margie Bryce, your host of the CKrabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time, so we hit topics there too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the Krabby Pastor. Hey there, this is Margie Bryce. With the Krabby Pastor podcast. I'm hosting a back from burnout episode. I know these are quite popular. Number one, so we can see that it is possible to come back and we want you to come back because we don't really want to see anybody having to depart ministry early and depart their call early or earlier maybe than was intended.

Margie: 1:07

In some cases, people take a different tack with their ministry, goes in a different direction. Sometimes they come back to pastoral work. It just depends, and I do see God working in all of that, but burnout is in all of that, but burnout is. I don't think that's a path that anybody would necessarily select. Now I think I'll do burnout, no. So I am here today with Rob Gashler and I met Rob at a meeting of the let me see if I can get this right. Society of Professors in Christian Ministry. We had a conference not that long ago and I met him there and he volunteered. I'm always excited when people will volunteer to do these Back from Burnouts and so far it's been all male. So ladies just saying that have been willing to come and share in the hopes of either encouraging or instructing us and helping us navigate ministry well. So, rob, could you introduce yourself to our audience?

Rob: 2:15

Sure, thank you for having me on. I appreciate the opportunity to tell my story, and my name is Rob and I am the discipleship pastor at Second Baptist Church in Baytown, texas, and I've only been here for six months and moved here after living most of my life in Arizona.

Margie: 2:35

Okay, Arizona. And then you moved to where again?

Rob: 2:39

Baytown, Texas. It's east of Houston. It's a refinery community.

Margie: 2:44

Oh, okay, all right, it's still hot climate, not hot. You went from one hot climate, so tell us, is it better if it's not a dry heat?

Rob: 2:56

You know, the humidity is everything they say. So I grew up in the dry heat. I would take the dry heat over this humidity any day. Yeah, yes, yes, and I've always up in the dry heat. I would take the dry heat over this humidity any day.

Margie: 3:05

Yeah, yes, yes, and I've always lived in the humid climate. So tell me then what kind of ministry role you were serving in when you started to meander towards burnout.

Rob: 3:23

I think it may have really started. I started doing college ministry. I did college ministry for almost a decade and I was in a church setting that had a lot of programming, a lot of schedule, you know, multiple services on the weekend, and I began to feel it there a little bit. But I had not yet learned how to protect myself or really be disciplined in my spiritual habits to practice Sabbath rest or spend real quality time with God. And I went from that into church planting and so that's a whole nother animal of a one-man show, building a vision, recruiting a team of a one-man show, building a vision, recruiting a team, raising financial support and trying to make a church go and developing the vision and strategy. All the systems plus preach every Sunday, and always trying to engage the community.

Rob: 4:17

And I'm just the type of person I'm certainly an anxious Christian and I deal with anxiety and there's always that pressure of man have I done enough today? Have I engaged enough people? Have I met enough new contacts? Are we doing the right things? Are we going the right direction? So my brain would never turn off as a church planter. And so it was just one thing after another trying to drive this thing along, and so that's really where I ended up clearly realizing I was burned out, but I also didn't realize to what extent burnout runs or to what extent we have to take measures to recover from it, until I began to research it.

Margie: 4:59

Yeah, and you said something that kind of caught my attention that you were an anxious Christian. I mean, is there such a thing?

Rob: 5:08

Yeah, well, you know, there's a book called the Anxious Christian by a marriage and family therapist, rhett Smith, and I went to college with him and it's a good book. He recounts his own personal story throughout the book and I realized, man, that's what I deal with and just, I'm a shepherd. And then when I shepherd people I worry about their well-being and I worry about how we're doing things. And in college ministry too well, and church planting, I always say I don't care how pious we pretend to be, you cannot escape the comparison trap in ministry as a church planter, a college minister, because there's always someone doing it better and that's just hard.

Margie: 5:57

Yeah, it is. It is, and I'm glad you identified some of the complexities of church planting. I mean, you do have a team usually have some kind of launch team but at the same time there are such a myriad of tasks that are required of you, and all the while you are also shepherding and doing the regular Sunday worship work as well, so it's a lot.

Rob: 6:27

Yeah.

Margie: 6:28

Absolutely so when did you start thinking that there might be a problem?

Rob: 6:36

I began to be increasingly concerned, I would say early in 2019. And I began to search for some other ministry opportunities.

Margie: 6:47

The exit ramp.

Rob: 6:49

Yes, the exit ramp out of church planting. But I also had this strong I'm a high level of responsibility kind of person If I commit to do something, I'm going to see it through. If I commit to a group of people, I'm going to be committed to them, and my church plant had a dynamic little church family, and so I couldn't on one side I couldn't imagine leaving them, but on the other side I felt like I needed to get out. So I began exploring other opportunities but kept pressing on. In 2019, in the summer, we went to the Purpose Driven Church Conference. I took three of my leaders. They got very excited for the future, of what we could do. I got excited that I had some other people excited. But then we moved into 2020 and, of course, then COVID hit. We were in the middle of a campaign as a church to engage our community and then that all got shut down. And so I just remember when we went home and we were forced to stay home for two weeks.

Rob: 7:50

Two weeks yeah, which then turned into yeah, two more weeks. In Arizona, we were shut down for a month, but after that we were given some liberty to open back up.

Rob: 8:01

But I remember watching my other pastor friends scramble to get online and, you know, do things online and move digitally and I'm just sitting there thinking I didn't care so much to do that, didn't have the energy to do that and had some good downtime to rest, to reflect, to spend time with God. And our community was so small we still were connecting at each other's home a little bit. For those first two weeks we were just on Zoom. But then I started to do a service not a service, but just a video, a live feed, just a sermon for four weeks. And so I just knew then for sure that there was a burnout issue. So I actually invited our small congregation into the conversation about the possibility that I needed to move on and they wanted to support me in that, and so that's where that began.

Margie: 8:58

So then, what were the indicators that you, besides looking for the exit ramp, you know, I've heard of pastors Googling. You know, what else can I do with an MDiv, you know? And so that's when you're kind of, and that is an indicator, when you start thinking a lot and it starts to grow about what else could I be doing here? Maybe I'd rather go work in the cafeteria in the high school or be a greeter at Walmart or something.

Rob: 9:28

That's the thing. When I realized I wasn't concerned about scrambling to get online or check on our people, I just felt like I was drained. I didn't have anything left to give. There was definitely in the Maslach burnout inventory. Now that I know what it is, understanding the depersonalization concept of how I just detached. I was emotionally exhausted, I detached from the work and so I did begin to think what else could I do out there?

Rob: 10:01

But I didn't jump out of ministry altogether at that point. I moved back into college ministry. It allowed me to focus again in a very specific area of ministry on a university campus and back at the University of Arizona. So I was there for the COVID year that they weren't meeting on campus, and then the year they opened back up on campus. But even still, I just didn't have the drive that I used to have for ministry. And so from there I began to really explore exiting the ministry and I actually did for two years as far as paid ministry and started to go into parks and recreation staff and I had been a realtor all my adult life, so I was doing that on the side as well.

Margie: 10:49

Okay, so you had a semi-exit ramp kind of experience. So then you started to troll and learn more about burnout. What kind of help and remedy did you seek out?

Rob: 11:05

Yeah, I ended up writing a research paper for a PhD seminar on ministry burnout, and at that point I realized, for one, there had been plenty of research already on pastors and ministry burnout.

Rob: 11:14

And at that point I realized, for one, there had been plenty of research already on pastors and ministry burnout.

Rob: 11:18

And then discovered some quality resources to learn how to cultivate the common theme of the research that's out there has been, that the spiritual health and spiritual vitality of the minister is key to preventing ministry burnout, and so discovering some tools and resources to guard and cultivate Sabbath rest, and then also to cultivate your own spiritual walk, with time in the word, time in prayer and then a balanced schedule. And then from there, as I began to actually jump into my actual dissertation research, which ended up being on the same topic, a newer book came out called the burnout challenge and looking at the relationship of people with their work and identifying that the workplace and the organization structure is at play also and as much at fault. It's not just the individual, so just the individual. We've often treated them as the dysfunctional person who needs to get it back together and get back in the workforce, whereas the organization itself can play a lot into someone. It could be what Christine Maslach calls a burnout factory, so it just produces burned out workers.

Margie: 12:32

Mm-hmm yeah, unhealthy environment. A lot of our ministries do that burnout factory, so it just produces burned out workers.

Rob: 12:34

Yeah, unhealthy environment. A lot of our ministries do that.

Margie: 12:36

Sure, sure and certainly we expect that our ministry leaders are connected to Christ spiritually. We expect that peace. And then you mentioned the balanced work life. I mean, I think some of that also dovetails in with the piece that I like to attend to, and that is that just because you're spiritual doesn't mean that you don't need to attend to the physical and the mental and the emotional. What kind of help did you find on those topics?

Rob: 13:18

of help did you find on those topics? I think well, one. I think one key one that stands out to me was as I began to research one of my colleagues in the PhD program I was in highly recommended Pastor Wayne Cordero's book Leading on Empty, and when I read that it was so helpful to understand the depth of burnout and the time that it takes to heal and I just felt like as I read it, it gave me a roadmap to rediscover my more intimate walk with Christ, but also to allow me to be patient, to take the time to recover as well, to take the time to recover as well.

Margie: 13:51

Yes, because I like to use, you know, do a hat tip to the area where I'm from, which is Detroit, and say you know you wouldn't treat your car the way that you treat yourself, your body. This is the vehicle God has given to you to function on the planet and a piece of that is living into your call. But if you had a car and you never, ever changed the oil, you never ever washed it, you never ever did any kind of maintenance. And then, especially my personal favorite, is when the car starts making really bad noises, you turn the radio up, and I think that's some of what ministry leaders sort of do, is don't attend to some issues as they arise. Is that fair?

Rob: 14:46

Yeah, certainly, and I think we just keep pressing on and we think, well, I just need a day off. I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions as well If I just take some time off, if I just take a few days off, but then to realize, even even to look at the concept of sabbatical, to take time off after experiencing burnout, you you've got to have several days just to unwind and disconnect from the workload and all the concerns and anxiety of the ministry before you can start to feel like you can rest. And so I even questioned the setting I'm in now has a very good balance, work-life balance. They really promote it, but the sabbatical they'll offer is a one-month sabbatical, and I had questioned that because, again, you need a week just to get disconnected from the work before you can learn to actually rest, and so that needs to be a longer process.

Margie: 15:46

So what were some of the steps that you took? To mitigate, not mitigate, that's not even the right, but just to work yourself out of burnout.

Rob: 15:58

Through it I would say I was doing Bible reading and prayer, but it wasn't focused or wasn't quality. I hadn't learned to quiet my mind, to just sit in the presence of God. So while I was back in Tucson doing college ministry, I began to put some of that back in place just some good quality quiet time, basically, and then moving on from there. Then, when I moved into working in the secular world, so to speak, with Parks and Rec, I had to learn how to do that now, not as a pastor who could do it as part of my daily work, but to actually spend time with God as a lay person, so to speak, for a couple of years, and so just redevelop the quality to my quiet time of being able to just sit in his presence, read the word, pray, and then even there's an element in ministry of, I'd say, just telling yourself the truth.

Rob: 16:54

So telling yourself, okay, I'm off today, I do not need to worry about the ministry obligations, I don't need to check my email and again, in the setting I'm in now, there's no expectation to check anything work-related on a day off, and they're very good about staff guarding other staffs If they take a personal day or vacation day that they don't contact. They don't try to contact the person who's off. We try to resolve it without them. So I think that's really helpful on the organization side. But for me personally, it was the learning to cultivate a better time with God and telling myself, when it was okay, to not worry about work, disconnect, take the day off and actually rest.

Margie: 17:38

Yeah, because I think scripture is pretty clear about do not worry, especially for tomorrow. Today has its own troubles and don't be anxious for anything. Anxious for anything and I think that there's a lot of North American productivity mindset that kind of filters in on, especially like church planting, something like that, where you've got to make it happen instead of following God and allow God to let it happen. God and allow God to let it happen. And I think that's a different mindset and one of the ways anyway that ministry leaders can get trapped.

Rob: 18:23

Yeah, and I think too. We have to be honest with ourselves. My ego could have said well, now that I've been the senior pastor of a church plant, I must seek out a senior pastorship. But I knew from my experience and knowing who I am, I thrived in support roles.

Rob: 18:38

And so I made a commitment to move back to a support role, and that's why first I went back into college ministry as an associate pastor and campus minister and then, even now, to come here and be the discipleship pastor. I have no interest in climbing the ladder or becoming the senior pastor. My desire is to serve in a support role and be a great support role for the rest of my career.

Margie: 19:04

And there's something to be said about number one the self-awareness that you have raised here, but also when you said that you have raised here, but also when you said I'm not climbing the ladder and frequently that's climbing the ladder over other people to get there, which is what Paul in Philippians 2 says. I don't want you climbing over other people to get where you need to go. That kind of competition is actually the polar opposite of humility.

Rob: 19:35

Right.

Margie: 19:37

Which is you know a whole. That's a whole nother like I think. You raised earlier the issue of competition among ministry leaders, even though that's not something we talk about.

Rob: 19:49

Yeah.

Margie: 19:50

A lot? All right, Not at all, but anyway. I remember sitting in a group of pastors and they said this is probably a well-known fact among ministry colleagues that we get together and kind of crank about things. Has that been your experience.

Rob: 20:09

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Margie: 20:11

Yeah, we don't like to admit that. I was second career in the ministry so this was a real eye-opener for me. But I'll never forget the one time they said let's go around the room and everybody say something positive, so we're not just sitting here complaining. So we got halfway around the room and this one ministry colleague says well, we just completed our $1 million addition. And I was thinking, dude you didn't have to say the number.

Margie: 20:39

Most of the pastors sitting here don't even have facilities that had that kind of price tag on it, so it's there. Sometimes it's unintentional or the person isn't tapped into. Maybe I ought not to say that number and the competition's there.

Rob: 20:59

Right. It's almost like it gets ingrained in us over time because those pastor fellowships conversations go that direction all the time.

Margie: 21:10

Yeah, I don't know if that's an unknown fact for our listeners or not, but anyway, moving on here. So you found, at some point, then, a better environment in which to work, an environment that valued, and this is what I so appreciate from the millennials and youngers. They seem to have a better concept or desire toward the work-life balance. Maybe they watched their parents go great guns and said, well, I'm not doing that, but you found an environment that is very supportive of that. How does your life and your pace in ministry look different now compared to earlier years, when you were headed on the burnout path?

Rob: 21:57

I know I used to feel guilty if I wasn't. You know, I always felt like, am I doing enough? Did I get enough done? And would never turn off the work mindset on my day off, whereas now I certainly feel totally comfortable, I have a clear conscience to take my day off or days off and not be troubled by the work obligations of ministry. So that's a big part of it. Yesterday I took a day off and my supervisor had to contact me with a question, and it was very apologetic for even contacting me, but it was. We had to answer the question. It was important.

Rob: 22:36

So, but that's the key thing is being having a clear conscious to turn off the work mindset on days off to rest and just enjoy, just enjoy being me. And there were years too in ministry and I know many struggle with this where your identity gets so wrapped up in who you are in ministry that you lose sight of being you. And so I remember one time friends had said you know you were, you kind of got lost in being Rob the student minister. We're, we're glad to have just Rob back and so so getting in touch with yourself to be or just to enjoy being you, the person that God made you and called you to be and enjoying his presence.

Margie: 23:21

Why do you think ministry leaders do that Sacrifice themselves in that way?

Rob: 23:28

Yeah, you know that's a good question and I'm not sure I'm to the heart of the issue. I do think I don't know. I mean, we're all fallen human beings, so we all have insecurities to some degree. But I wonder if it's the kind of people that are called to ministry are also wired a certain way that we give our all to our work and then we get enmeshed emotionally in it and can't detach from it, yeah, yeah, and then going along with that.

Margie: 24:03

Then is the feeling guilty, and I remember feeling that way when I would go to the gym. I felt like, oh no, I should be attending to my massive to-do list. I'm slacking here, when in reality, what I was doing was a good thing for me and for my health, so that I could keep going.

Rob: 24:28

Yeah, that's true, and you mentioned going to the gym. That I used to. Not, I used to try to run, but then I, when I did join a gym, that was totally new to me, but now that's a key part of my personal well-being is I really guard my workout time and I don't. I don't answer, I don't try to take calls or texts at the time that I'm working out, and because that's just truly my time to take calls or texts at the time that I'm working out, and because that's just truly my time to take care of myself, decompress, and so that's an important element as well.

Margie: 24:59

Yeah, absolutely. Any other newer well-being choices you've made.

Rob: 25:08

Nothing beyond that.

Rob: 25:09

The quality quiet time, the disconnecting on my day off with a clear conscience, and the physical fitness, I think have been all key elements.

Rob: 25:20

Well, I guess I would say too, I was always the type to I want to do more and I want to do it fast.

Rob: 25:24

I want to see everything get accomplished and I want to see us move into every ministry opportunity that we can. But I'm realizing now that I can't do everything, and as I get older I slow down a little bit, and so even in the setting I'm in now, I still have a heart to see young adults reached in our community, and so I did start a young adult small group, and that's somewhat beyond my. It's not in my job description, so to speak, but it's on my heart. But I don't want to get stuck to where we grow, something like where it needs a weekly large group meeting and I have to plan a talk every week and that kind of stuff. It would be how do we get the young adults to create a movement where I'm not the young adults pastor, so to speak, because I have a full plate as the adult discipleship pastor, so I'm more guarded now to say you know what? That's not, I can't take that on. I can't take any more on, and it's okay if I say no.

Margie: 26:26

That's. I mean that's huge. Okay To say no.

Rob: 26:30

Yeah.

Margie: 26:30

I mean, I think, when it comes to ministry, many pastors feel like saying no is just like saying no to God, even though it might be something that is more than what they really can take and more than too much to have on one person's plate.

Margie: 26:53

Yeah right and more than too much to have on one person's plate. Yeah right, how did you deal then with the expectations of people? I mean, it sounded like your church planter group got it. They understood Mm-hmm, but did you ever have to deal with other people's expectations of you, either then, when you were in the throes of burnout, or now?

Rob: 27:17

I'd say maybe in the church planning circle I was in and the network that we were in, there were competing views.

Rob: 27:25

Fortunately, the pastor of my sponsoring church and I and our specific our direct report, so to speak, in our association of churches, we were on the same page, but the leadership that came from our state denomination were not on the same page as us, and so there was a little bit of tension there, and so that was hard to a little bit hard to navigate, and so that was, that was hard to a little bit hard to navigate. So then you felt like, well, I'm not performing to expectations on one side, but I think I am on the other side. And then, and then of course in time, we had people leave. You know, they wanted to see certain things take place in our little ministry, but it wasn't happening, and so they went somewhere where it was. So then you feel frustrated and defeated, thinking, well, why wouldn't?

Rob: 28:13

I thought you were committed to help us grow this here, why don't you help make it happen here? But instead they just checked out to go somewhere else and so had to let them go. But you get discouraged. So there's that discouragement as well.

Margie: 28:29

Yeah, yeah. The fish are always jumping from tank to tank.

Rob: 28:33

Yeah, yeah, so I think it's kind of a whole whole. Nother conversation for another arena, but church planting. I think that when church planters burn out or struggle and the thing doesn't go, there's a lot of grief in in that, like you, you went down a dead end or you failed in ministry. So, even though everyone thought what we did was for that season and God was in it, it was fruitful, it was great, we ended on a positive note. But me, as the senior leader, can't help but feel like I failed. And so there's no at least in the circle I was in, there was no after debrief or triage support for a church planter in that case, and I wonder if anyone's dealing with that anywhere.

Margie: 29:24

Yeah, that's a good point. That was, I think, somewhat the beginning for me of a compassion for ministry leaders, when I saw church planters and at the time parachute drops were the thing.

Margie: 29:39

This is a number of years ago, even though we know today that their chance of survival is pretty small compared to some other models. But yeah, I saw church planters fail and it was almost like they, you know, they threw them out in the water from from the pier and said, hey, can you swim? After they threw them out and then, when they couldn't swim, you know it was like who's calling them out and helping them walk through the failure, the sense of failure that they feel. And of course, you know God doesn't waste anything. And you learn. You say what did we learn from that? Okay, it didn't work out how we expected. What can we learn? And but I saw, I felt like they were too easily discarded and then they move on to the next thing and then, when one takes, there's a whole lot of back slapping. That goes on. Hey, hey, hey.

Margie: 30:39

This is amazing so then there's that comparison trap again I know, I know, you know, and I guess that's a rather crass renditioning of what has happened, but I'm just, you know, I'm saying what I perceived and how I felt, just a great sense of sadness on their behalf. So hopefully somebody has taken that mantle up. So if you were to talk to your younger self prior to burnout, what are the top couple of things that you would say, not only to yourself, but then also as a way of offering that to our friends who are listening?

Rob: 31:20

Yeah, I think I would certainly say slow down and cultivate a quality quiet time with God. And then the other thing and I've reflected on this before is I was, as a young adult, I was busy too. I was growing this booming college ministry and as a young professional, I often would forfeit time to hang out with our young professionals group that I was a part of, and I look back now and I regret not. You know, of course, with social media we stay somewhat connected, but I realized I missed out on developing some key relationships and being present with some people that were really meaningful in my life, and so I think the other part is being present with people.

Margie: 32:00

Yes, yes, do not do this journey alone. For any of us, whether you're a lay person, whether you're a ministry leader, whether it's friends, accountability group, a coach, a mentor, something just don't be doing this alone. It's just. I think we're meant to acknowledge the gifts that other people are to us in our lives, are to us in our lives. Well, thank you so much for what you brought here today to the conversation about burnout, and I would like to ask you from.

Rob: 32:51

Yeah, certainly I like to protect my time or what I want to do. So, even though I always point out all of Jesus's ministry was out of an interruption and we need to allow interruptions and margin in our lives for ministry, I certainly still get crabby when I feel like people have imposed on my time and corrupted me.

Margie: 33:17

Oh well, thank you. Thank you for offering that, and I'd like to ask that question because it's just kind of a I don't know reality check that ministry leaders get crabby too. You know because we are people, right, right. Well, thank you so much for being on the Crabby Pastor podcast and sharing your burnout story in the spirit of may it be helpful for someone else and may God redeem this too.

Rob: 33:47

Thank you.

Margie: 33:52

So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill? This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy. Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about, so I'd love for you to join me. To do that, to opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmailcom. That's crabbypastor at gmailcom. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.

Margie: 35:19

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout? Maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebryce dot com that's B-R-Y-C-E MargieBryce dot com, and it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download, and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I ask that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebricecom. It's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.

Margie: 36:57

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook I make stained glass as part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can buy me a cup of coffee thing in the show notes but I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders.

Margie: 37:55

Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby Pastor. Thank you.